Brian Gatens is an Adventure Racer who also runs the podcast ARDarkZone.com. Brian and Dave had the chance to sit down and talk about caving, teamwork, rescue, psychology, and the CaveSim system. The resulting podcast is really fun to listen to, and is available here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-121-dave-jackson-of-cavesim-what-caving-can/id1578529221?i=1000702188060